Is the Aquilasax neck the root of any intonation problems ?

[alan]

In conversations with Steve, he's mentioned in the past that intonation problems are being addressed by a newly dimensioned curved neck.

This seems to be confirmed by an Aquilasax C that recently sold on ebay-Oz.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT&item=290317402249


(to quote from the listing) "It comes with two necks: one straight and one curved depending upon your size. The straight neck is suitable for all players, but the curved is just suitable for small beginners as it makes the sax slightly out of tune."

As I now play (almost exclusively) the Aquilasax bare-brass C with the alto-style neck - it's become my C-Alto - without any noticeable intonation "challenges", I don't really want to go back to testing the curved necks. Anyone else confirm how good the intonation is with the "alto-neck" ?

[Ross]

Alan,
I can concur with your experience with the Aquilasax straight neck.
I teamed Steve's after-market neck with my Conn to get around the micro-tuner and try more tenor mpcs.
I have also purchased from Steve both the old and the new-style Metalpros.
I prefer the older style Metalpro on the Conn and the pitch is spot-on over the full range.
I'm afraid tenor mpcs don't do it for me!
Ross.

[Mal-2]

In conversations with Steve, he's mentioned in the past that intonation problems are being addressed by a newly dimensioned curved neck.

This seems to be confirmed by an Aquilasax C that recently sold on ebay-Oz.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT&item=290317402249


(to quote from the listing) "It comes with two necks: one straight and one curved depending upon your size. The straight neck is suitable for all players, but the curved is just suitable for small beginners as it makes the sax slightly out of tune."

As I now play (almost exclusively) the Aquilasax bare-brass C with the alto-style neck - it's become my C-Alto - without any noticeable intonation "challenges", I don't really want to go back to testing the curved necks. Anyone else confirm how good the intonation is with the "alto-neck" ?

Steve sent me another neck to try, which arrived Friday. This one had a gold octave key, but I have no difficulty swapping those around.

Within the first minute I could tell this neck was a considerable improvement. I think the octave pip is still a shade too large, causing A2 and C#3 to be sharp, but if it were smaller it would most likely have adverse effects on the response of the palm keys. Thus I opted to use the hot glue insert method of fixing intonation. You may remember this picture:


Instead of denting the neck like I did with the neck in the picture, I poked a straightened paper clip into a thin strip of hot glue. I marked the paper clip with a Sharpie marker so I would know when I had the depth right (which is a zone about two inches long, centered on the octave pip), then I inserted it into the neck. I heated the neck with a butane torch just enough to get the glue to stick (so I could pull the paper clip back out), then finished melting the glue so that it would coat the inside smoothly.

This worked quite well for bringing the octaves in line (it both FLATTENS the second octave, and slightly SHARPENS the first octave), but it does adversely affect the response of the palm keys. Fortunately, this response is STILL better than the original neck with NO intonation fixes in place. E and F are still a bit troublesome when played all-palm-keys, F in particular, but front F is fine. The response of altissimo G and G# are slightly improved with this neck as well, though they weren't that bad to start with. I also don't have to push the mouthpiece in quite as far, since the range from A1 to C#2 is no longer significantly flat. C#3 is still sharp, but I have yet to find a horn where this octave is NOT wide unless it is equipped with a mechanism to partially close the C# tone hole when the octave key is pressed.

Once I decided the new neck would be adequate with the help of the insert, I asked Steve how he wanted the original sent back. Not too surprisingly, he said to just send it back to the return address on the box I just got. I'll probably use the same box too. It's a bit flimsy but I don't have anything more appropriate.

Some intonation issues required more direct intervention. For example, both side C and side Bb are sharper than their left hand only counterparts. (1+1 and 1+2 Bb are quite flat and useless outside of trills and very rapid passages.) I can't bring bis Bb up, but I can and did bring side Bb down with a crescent in the tone hole. It's still slightly sharper than bis Bb, but it's within reason (less than 10 cents) and bis Bb is flat relative to the notes around it -- just not AS flat as 1+1. I then did the same with side C, though it doesn't take much to significantly alter the pitch since the hole is so small.

[alan]

I have a slight concern over both the availability of, and need for, replacement necks on an 'ad hoc' basis....

I know there have probably been bore changes at the 'top end' over the production cycle of the Aquilasax C. Neither of the necks that came with my current bare-brass would fit the older lacquer Aquilasax C, the tenons are far too big.

Steve, if you're using buyers to help with acoustic R&D, at the expense of their inconvenience and potential dissatisfaction, that's a very slippery slope. And if only the buyers that experience intonation problems - and complain about it - get replacement necks, then is that just down to occasional duff necks, variation in production specs, and/or just poor QC ? If you're reading this, Steve, a quick explanation (amongst supportive friends) would be greatly appreciated.

I'm very happy with my bare-brass Aquilasax C , admittedly just using the alto-style neck, it's the only C I play these days (apart from the 20's C-Sop) but I may just have to record something with 'both necks' playing slow chromatic scales against (e.g.) the Orpheo alto just to check if I'm 'glossing over' any intonation problems. Regardless of how it shows on a tuner, that's really the only sensible check imho, as the ultimate aim is obviously to be in tune with other saxophones - radical as that may seem.

[Mal-2]

I have a slight concern over both the availability of, and need for, replacement necks on an 'ad hoc' basis....

I know there have probably been bore changes at the 'top end' over the production cycle of the Aquilasax C. Neither of the necks that came with my current bare-brass would fit the older lacquer Aquilasax C, the tenons are far too big.

Steve, if you're using buyers to help with acoustic R&D, at the expense of their inconvenience and potential dissatisfaction, that's a very slippery slope. And if only the buyers that experience intonation problems - and complain about it - get replacement necks, then is that just down to occasional duff necks, variation in production specs, and/or just poor QC ? If you're reading this, Steve, a quick explanation (amongst supportive friends) would be greatly appreciated.

I'm very happy with my bare-brass Aquilasax C , admittedly just using the alto-style neck, it's the only C I play these days (apart from the 20's C-Sop) but I may just have to record something with 'both necks' playing slow chromatic scales against (e.g.) the Orpheo alto just to check if I'm 'glossing over' any intonation problems. Regardless of how it shows on a tuner, that's really the only sensible check imho, as the ultimate aim is obviously to be in tune with other saxophones - radical as that may seem.

Yamaha issued some G1 alto necks that didn't play nice with the 62. They had to do a recall and they STILL didn't get them all. Maybe Steve doesn't know WHO has WHAT -- though it may be time to start keeping track.

I can tell you I have discovered some oversights in the assembly process on my horn, and a couple design flaws that should have been caught at the prototype phase (neither of which is severe). I have anecdotal evidence (my own) that the majority of flaws creeping into the product are getting in at the assembly stage. I had pads held in with a bare minimum of shellac, making them impossible to float. Then somewhere else on the horn I'd encounter pads that had plenty. They were probably put together by different people, maybe on different shifts. I sent Steve the evidence, and he said "Nothing like getting caught out to make you pull up your socks! I'm sending these pictures to the factory." That makes me think he's not terribly pleased by them slacking either. Now they've figured out ways to cut corners EVEN WHEN HE'S THERE.

Luckily I know a little something about bad necks, and what to do about them. First, try to get a better one. Then, when it's reasonably close, do the little finishing tweaks. I'll happily share the hot glue method I used to tune the neck, if you want it. It's not all that hard, and it's reversible. It might cost you a neck cork, maybe. Depends what notes you're tuning.

[Steve]

I have a slight concern over both the availability of, and need for, replacement necks on an 'ad hoc' basis....

I know there have probably been bore changes at the 'top end' over the production cycle of the Aquilasax C. Neither of the necks that came with my current bare-brass would fit the older lacquer Aquilasax C, the tenons are far too big.

Steve, if you're using buyers to help with acoustic R&D, at the expense of their inconvenience and potential dissatisfaction, that's a very slippery slope. And if only the buyers that experience intonation problems - and complain about it - get replacement necks, then is that just down to occasional duff necks, variation in production specs, and/or just poor QC ? If you're reading this, Steve, a quick explanation (amongst supportive friends) would be greatly appreciated.

I'm very happy with my bare-brass Aquilasax C , admittedly just using the alto-style neck, it's the only C I play these days (apart from the 20's C-Sop) but I may just have to record something with 'both necks' playing slow chromatic scales against (e.g.) the Orpheo alto just to check if I'm 'glossing over' any intonation problems. Regardless of how it shows on a tuner, that's really the only sensible check imho, as the ultimate aim is obviously to be in tune with other saxophones - radical as that may seem..

Firstly my apologies, I no longer get time to peruse the forums and it’s been months since I checked in. But it will not get better soon and I will not likely enter into any long conversations.

To answer Alan’s question requires I think a reassessment of the facts of life.

We produce new C melody tenor Saxes complete for @ $800 made in China.
If we made them in Germany or America or New Zealand, they might be better quality but we would have to charge @$4,000 each to cover costs.
Many big name companies are also now getting Saxes made in China but they are still charging thousands rather than hundreds.

China has QC issues that will not be quickly solved; they are not like the Japanese who turned it around in a few short years but they are cheaper.
We must also remember that saxophones are incredibly complex instruments. Most of the assembly work must be done by hand, using jigs but not robots.

A good job is therefore down to a good worker. Not all factory workers are good and careful.
Bad workers can be trained or fired but can do a lot of damage in the meantime. Such was the case with the C tenor necks. In early 2007 a worker used the C melody mold instead of the C tenor mold.
I had personally tested the latest prototype and found it perfect and gave the go ahead. When the new Saxes arrived, I assuming they made copies of the test sample, played them briefly, enjoyed the tone and playability and sent them off to their eagerly awaiting customers. 3 weeks later the bad news started to come back.
We now play test every sax with a tuner and use a standard C Metalpro as different mpcs, players and even reeds can make a difference. Remember also that I am also human and can make mistakes but do not intend to send out Saxes that I myself would not appreciate getting.

With so much being hand installed it is always possible to have minor variations. A worker may have a bad day or a bad night or turn up to work sick because they can’t afford the time off. This can happen in any country as Mal’s C mel neck and Yamaha story can attest.

I am pleased with the factory I chose because they have a progressive outlook and are committed to improvement and are mechanizing more and more. Their saxes are a cut above the average in China.
Eventually they will achieve Japanese quality and probably Japanese prices to go with it.
So improvement is happening with occasional glitches, hopefully discovered by me and sent back.
Life is a compromise and we have a quality cost balance here that I think is acceptable and useful. Many players are beginning to record great music with them and that for me is the bottom line.

If we are ready to pay $4,000 for a new C melody then Selmer will soon be making them but I warn you, they will be making them in China.